Brexit

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waywardson
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Brexit

Post by waywardson » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:50 pm

In or Out? (Sorry, someone had to ask.)

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frank
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Re: Brexit

Post by frank » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:39 pm

You're out of your fucking mind if you think I'm touching that with a bargepole.
Shows? All of em.

"He's like an Uncle, I like him but I don't want to listen to him all day."

waywardson
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Re: Brexit

Post by waywardson » Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:18 pm

Haha, figured as much. Safe travels!

ryrypoli
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Re: Brexit

Post by ryrypoli » Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:01 pm

I had to look up what a Barge Pole was...I agree.

Pete
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pete » Fri Jun 24, 2016 2:38 pm

Voted out, very happy, but tinged with regret at the prospective loss of free movement, both in and out of the country. Hope forlornly that we can retain single market access whilst taking back sovereignty and legal supremacy.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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NickSouthampton
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Re: Brexit

Post by NickSouthampton » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:00 am

I understand Frank not wanting to jump into the bear pit.

The Sleeping Souls have made it very clear that they voted IN so if Frank holds a different view then there must be some interesting discussions on the bus.

I voted IN as well, I'm sad that Europe will become a much poorer (in many senses) and less stable place to live in if we do leave.
Nick in "Sunny" Southampton.

www.nickhaynesmusic.com/

Evan
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Re: Brexit

Post by Evan » Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:25 pm

NickSouthampton wrote:I'm sad that Europe will become a much poorer (in many senses) and less stable place to live in if we do leave.

*when. The IF part is over now.
Beverley, Birmingham, Blackheath, Boston, Cheltenham, Dublin, Donington, Guildford, Hatfield, Hoboken, Knebworth, Latitude, Leamington Spa, London, Manchester, New York, Nottingham, Oxford, Reading, Sayreville, Sheffield, Southend, Wembley, Wolverhampton.

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NickSouthampton
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Re: Brexit

Post by NickSouthampton » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:52 pm

Evan wrote:
NickSouthampton wrote:I'm sad that Europe will become a much poorer (in many senses) and less stable place to live in if we do leave.
*when. The IF part is over now.
I must have missed the fat lady. :)
Nick in "Sunny" Southampton.

www.nickhaynesmusic.com/

smige2
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Re: Brexit

Post by smige2 » Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:00 pm

We're definitely going to hell.
22.08.08, 29.10.08, 19.01.09, 07.03.09, 30.08.09, 29.10.09, 24.03.10, 19.06.10, 19.07.10, 10.12.10, 21.04.11, 27.05.11, 27.11.11, 13.04.12, 25.04.13, 12.09.14, 26.03.15, 29.03.15, 31.07.15, 13.05.17, 14.05.17, 29.07.17, 12.05.18

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blastman
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Re: Brexit

Post by blastman » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:57 pm

Evan wrote:
NickSouthampton wrote:I'm sad that Europe will become a much poorer (in many senses) and less stable place to live in if we do leave.

*when. The IF part is over now.
Show ain't over until Article 50 is invoked. As far as I know the referendum is not binding, the govt. can still decide not to implement the result. I doubt Boris wants to be the one to lead the UK out of the EU, whoever does that will not be a popular bunny.

Pete
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pete » Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:46 pm

Whoever does it will have a mandate of 17.4m who were the democratic majority of the biggest turnout for a vote almost 25 years! The bitterness and denial of some on the side of remain is painful. Democracy is great as long as it agrees with me.

The Tories ran on a promise of a referendum. They were elected with a majority, delivered the referendum and were given a definitive answer. It is their job to now implement this, preferably before an election. But if it's after an election, which party would run on a promise not to implement? Bearing in mind several million Labour voters voted out, it would be political suicide on their part to run on that ticket. The Tory grassroots actually support Brexit and they would have one of the lead Brexit campaigners in charge, or Theresa May who is about as Eurosceptic a Remain campaigner as Jeremy Corbyn, so they would definitely promise to implement post-election. That leaves you with the Lib Dems - good luck with that. If all the parties agreed not to implement, then you would see UKIP gain a large number of those 17m votes and a genuine shot at power. The byproduct would also be the destruction of any trust between the political classes and the general population.

Remain lost. Time to take it on the chin and try to put across an agenda for post-EU Britain that whichever allegiance you're of, would make it as palatable as possible for you
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

Kerr
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Re: Brexit

Post by Kerr » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:18 pm

Pete wrote:Whoever does it will have a mandate of 17.4m who were the democratic majority of the biggest turnout for a vote almost 25 years! The bitterness and denial of some on the side of remain is painful. Democracy is great as long as it agrees with me.

The Tories ran on a promise of a referendum. They were elected with a majority, delivered the referendum and were given a definitive answer. It is their job to now implement this, preferably before an election. But if it's after an election, which party would run on a promise not to implement? Bearing in mind several million Labour voters voted out, it would be political suicide on their part to run on that ticket. The Tory grassroots actually support Brexit and they would have one of the lead Brexit campaigners in charge, or Theresa May who is about as Eurosceptic a Remain campaigner as Jeremy Corbyn, so they would definitely promise to implement post-election. That leaves you with the Lib Dems - good luck with that. If all the parties agreed not to implement, then you would see UKIP gain a large number of those 17m votes and a genuine shot at power. The byproduct would also be the destruction of any trust between the political classes and the general population.

Remain lost. Time to take it on the chin and try to put across an agenda for post-EU Britain that whichever allegiance you're of, would make it as palatable as possible for you
I voted in, but I'm not going to lose too much sleep in fear in anticipation of the world ending for us.

However a huge proportion of people who voted out did so on the basis of the assumption that immigration numbers were going to be vastly reduced.

Then all the oldies are a bit passionate about their NHS.

The leave campaign did focus on these two very sensitive subjects and did everything they could to mislead people. They couldn't be straight in the build up, certainly not in public, then within days conceded that their entire campaign had huge huge flaws.

I'm all for democracy, but millions headed to the polls with their heads full of nonsense.

If the leave campaign were honest enough to admit there was no intention to reduce immigration numbers and the liklihood is we would still have free movement of labour, the vote would have been different.

If they also conceded that the NHS wouldn't be funded with this magical £350m per week that would further increase the swing.

It's impossible to deny that a lot of people have been hoodwinked.

Pete
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pete » Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:38 am

How were they not straight re immigration? Sadly, I think May, Gove and Leadsom all see a long term limit or stricter points system on immigration (I would prefer the EEA model and maintaining free movement of people. I find this article sets out my preferred route far more eloquently than I could, although I fear only Boris would have attempted to deliver as such: http://www.adamsmith.org/evolution-not-revolution/). I'm pretty sure very few people thought we were going to change that overnight, regardless of hysterical press coverage of racist cunts being racist cunts (as they were before, as they will be again after. The vote highlighted this, it did not cause it).

Re the NHS, I'm pretty sure most sane people, when told we could save £350m a week (a dubious figure in itself) that could be spent on the NHS, didn't all think immediately that amount would be spent on the NHS in full. The In campaign spent the referendum lead up telling everyone to ignore Farage, then the moment he makes a comment on a breakfast show after an all night bender on vote night, it's seized upon as gospel and used as evidence the leave campaign lied even though Farage had no input to the official campaign and plays no part in the negotiations to take us out. As I say, I'm sure that amount won't be spent on the NHS and personally I would not want it to be. Per capita we have by far the best funded health service in the world yet it still continues to fail in myriad ways with scandals and under-performing hospitals constantly becoming apparent. Something beyond throwing money at the situation needs to be done.

Then lets look at just a few of the remain campaign promises:

Punishment budget immediately after election - has not happened
Rolling Obama out to say we would be at the back of the queue for any negotiations - Clinton & Trump have since confirmed that won't happen
3 million jobs would be lost - would only happen if every single job tied to anyone linked to EU disappeared

And that doesn't even touch the rhetoric around world wars and the collapse in western civilisation espoused by those in the EU and closer to home.

In my view both campaigns represented a nadir in politics and the aftermath remain tantrum possibly left us plumbing further, I think the state of the tory and labour party right now is disgraceful and the need for a fiscally conservative and socially liberal party is immense. But sadly to a degree that's politics these days. A lot of people voted tory for a budget surplus and cut in immigration numbers, voted for the Lib Dems to scrap tuition fees and certainly didn't vote labour in a bid to start an illegal war that could very easily be traced as the root cause of the creation of IS.

As a final note, and i mean this in the kindest possible way, I was surprised to see Frank, Matt, Tarrant, Nigel and Ben putting an image out for a t-shirt stating 'you are welcome here' and linking it to racism following the referendum. Maybe it's slightly clumsy wording and it is without doubt me being precious, but as mentioned above racism is still a problem on these shores and it wasn't caused by the referendum and those who voted out almost to a man and woman aren't racist. The conflation of the two is one of the most insulting things I've seen since the referendum. In the event of an In vote I actually fear there would have actually been a bigger surge from the tiny number of stupid fascists who, in their twisted minds, lost. The reported number of racially aggravated crime rose some 60%, which is horrendous, but not a massive number statistically and something that has jumped previously during patriotic events such as sport. On this occasion it has just been highlighted more - which it should be every time it occurs, not just when it suits a media agenda. I think T-shirts stating slogans such as the above are counterproductive as it implies the issue is far broader than in actuality and again can cause people to make that jump from Out voters to racists. I caveat this that as a white British male I am only in a position to hypothesise about this and I've no true insight to the feeling of any non-nationals other than those I have gauged anecdotally.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

Kerr
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Re: Brexit

Post by Kerr » Sun Jul 03, 2016 9:31 am

How did they mislead people? Read any of the popular websites, watch the news, read the newspapers and see how many people extracted that a leave vote was a vote to drastically reduce immigration. There's a lot of people out there that have got the wrong end of the stick for a reason.

A lot of people share the opinion that there's too many immigrants in this country and they cause them harm. Immigration is out of control was a very common quote used long before any of the campaigning started.

Then they hear the phrases like "take back control" and "control immigration" making them put two and two together. We already have control over non-EU immigration and people didn't realise this and were surprised to learn of the actually numbers in comparison to EU immigration.

If you actually go back and watch many of the interviews, on various occasions, there was huge suggestions that numbers would be drastically reduced, often linking mass immigration and the strain on public services together. Even the TV debate just a couple of nights before the vote the immigration questions were not answered. They were asked directly and they completely avoided an answer. If they said on the live TV debate what they subsequently have been open about I'm sure the vote would have been different.

Then there was all the leaflets posted through people's letterboxes solely aiming at the strain on the NHS and immigration numbers. There was also a TV advert showing a hospital waiting room far too busy prior to leaving, then a peaceful empty hospital waiting room that would be result of voting out.

How more suggestive could they be?

Personally I think the leave campaign did everything they could to mislead people and picked the two main topics that a lot of people are very sensitive about. It worked a treat and that probably is part of the reason that so many extra people actually voted for once.

We will see what happens in time and everyone is guessing what might happen. Personally I think everything will be done to retain a trade agreement at the expense of the control people wanted.

Pete
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Re: Brexit

Post by Pete » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:43 am

Hmmm... It's a circular argument as we don't even know who will be negotiating let alone our negotiating position, so I won't carry on down the route but I will say that i really don't think a lot of people didn't know we already had control of non-EU immigration, the numbers re immigration are hazy at best (600k+ EU citizens gained UK NI numbers in the last recorded year against a stated immigration figure of circa 300k net) and you have entirely ignored my point re how many people voted In based on the campaign's doomsday scenario.

Once again, I'd encourage anyone with a fleeting interest to have a read of the article I linked above. I'm gutted that with boris out this may well prove a non starter as I have relied on EU nationals as colleagues, bosses and employees throughout my career, but I do think a compromise will be reached and I still see the vote as a victory for sovereignty and democracy. I find the argument that the nation was hoodwinked into voting somewhat condescending too. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't make them stupid, foolish and wrong, they may just share different views and ideals.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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