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Is representational democracy the best form of government and is capitalism the best economic system?

Both together provide for the optimal society
3
25%
Democracy is the best form of government, but Capitalism leads to corruption
7
58%
Capitalism is the most profitable economic system for all, but Democracy leads to Anarchy and uninformed and unjust laws.
0
No votes
Both Capitalism and Democracy have severe issues, and societies would be better off searching for alternative forms of government and economy
2
17%
 
Total votes: 12

Pete
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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:30 pm

I'd like London to declare itself separate from the rest of the UK and become the Singapore of the Atlantic... not going to happen though sadly!

I'd take any from that list bar Scotland to be honest!

I've heard a lot of good things about Singapore, think it's rapidly joining Canada and New Zealand as places I'd consider relocating.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

Pete
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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:32 pm

Tomasz wrote:
Pete wrote:Sorry, what are my choices here?!
Yes or no :)

Your problem with the liberal democrats seems to be (based on Charlotte Gore's site) that they don't go far enough, that what we need is a total revolution (as in massive, total change; maybe not guns and so forth...). Yay, or nay, or other?
No no, my problem is they aren't Liberal Democrats, they are social democrats, they are obsessed with the state rather than the individual and governing the masses under the rule of the few. I'm quite the opposite.

As I said earlier, I realise it's not going to be a switch that takes place overnight, but all three parties are seemingly becoming more authoritarian and statist rather than less so...
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:35 pm

Pete wrote:I'd like London to declare itself separate from the rest of the UK and become the Singapore of the Atlantic... not going to happen though sadly!

I'd take any from that list bar Scotland to be honest!

I've heard a lot of good things about Singapore, think it's rapidly joining Canada and New Zealand as places I'd consider relocating.
Oi! China? I mean, I love Chinese. I've been studying it for like 4 years, and I love spending summers there, but a site like this would be banned in China. Did you know Facebook is illegal there? As are many news sites etc. I could never live there. When the world goes to shit, you'll find me in Madagascar. At least there, people might leave me alone.

Anyways, I have to go take the Final that prompted this entire topic. Wish me luck!
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

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Tomasz
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Post by Tomasz » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:38 pm

Pete wrote:No no, my problem is they aren't Liberal Democrats, they are social democrats, they are obsessed with the state rather than the individual and governing the masses under the rule of the few. I'm quite the opposite.

As I said earlier, I realise it's not going to be a switch that takes place overnight, but all three parties are seemingly becoming more authoritarian and statist rather than less so...
I'd say that they were the party that talks most about devolving power out of Westminster and political reform. I appreciate they're not saying that they're going to rip everything to shreds, but surely they're the party moving most in that direction?
Pete wrote:Sometimes, I wish I was a dog on a swing.

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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:39 pm

ZaryAnne wrote:
Pete wrote:I'd like London to declare itself separate from the rest of the UK and become the Singapore of the Atlantic... not going to happen though sadly!

I'd take any from that list bar Scotland to be honest!

I've heard a lot of good things about Singapore, think it's rapidly joining Canada and New Zealand as places I'd consider relocating.
Oi! China? I mean, I love Chinese. I've been studying it for like 4 years, and I love spending summers there, but a site like this would be banned in China. Did you know Facebook is illegal there? As are many news sites etc. I could never live there. When the world goes to shit, you'll find me in Madagascar. At least there, people might leave me alone.

Anyways, I have to go take the Final that prompted this entire topic. Wish me luck!
China's like the Brixton of the East, in 10 years time everyone will say they've always wanted to live there.

Good luck
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

Pete
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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:42 pm

Tomasz wrote:
Pete wrote:No no, my problem is they aren't Liberal Democrats, they are social democrats, they are obsessed with the state rather than the individual and governing the masses under the rule of the few. I'm quite the opposite.

As I said earlier, I realise it's not going to be a switch that takes place overnight, but all three parties are seemingly becoming more authoritarian and statist rather than less so...
I'd say that they were the party that talks most about devolving power out of Westminster and political reform. I appreciate they're not saying that they're going to rip everything to shreds, but surely they're the party moving most in that direction?
I'd say they've gone further and further away from this model in the last 15 years. I'd also say some of the noises coming from the Tories, and the application of bits of 'The Plan' (Hannan and Carswell book that keeps showing up in policy) make them the party who have shifted slightly in that direction.

At the end of the day i think none of them offer anything like the solution, hence my joining LPUK. I realise it's small and derided but fuck it, better to join a party that on the whole represent my beliefs and that I don't have to feel like i'm trying to change from the inside, than sticking with one of the big 2 / other 1 just because they're the only 'viable' options. I'm hoping in the long term that might change.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:44 pm

Pete wrote:
At the end of the day i think none of them offer anything like the solution, hence my joining LPUK. I realise it's small and derided but fuck it, better to join a party that on the whole represent my beliefs and that I don't have to feel like i'm trying to change from the inside, than sticking with one of the big 2 / other 1 just because they're the only 'viable' options. I'm hoping in the long term that might change.
Good luck with that. In the years since 1831 (And that's a lot of years) America has only gone through 3 party systems. But that's America, I don't know about England.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

Pete
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Post by Pete » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:24 am

ZaryAnne wrote:
Pete wrote:
At the end of the day i think none of them offer anything like the solution, hence my joining LPUK. I realise it's small and derided but fuck it, better to join a party that on the whole represent my beliefs and that I don't have to feel like i'm trying to change from the inside, than sticking with one of the big 2 / other 1 just because they're the only 'viable' options. I'm hoping in the long term that might change.
Good luck with that. In the years since 1831 (And that's a lot of years) America has only gone through 3 party systems. But that's America, I don't know about England.
No better way to start the day than with a 16 year old smashing your hopes and dreams...!

Nah, I realise it's a long shot, but as I say, I don't think the current main parties offer anything like what I believe. Maybe in time the Tories or Lib Dems will reposition and i'll reconsider supporting them, but for now I'd rather be involved in something representative of my views. They've changed plenty this last year though so who knows!

Genuinely impressive poncy education you have there though, when I was 16 I was only interested in getting stoned and watching Tartan Asia Extreme films.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:46 pm

Pete wrote:
ZaryAnne wrote:
Pete wrote:
At the end of the day i think none of them offer anything like the solution, hence my joining LPUK. I realise it's small and derided but fuck it, better to join a party that on the whole represent my beliefs and that I don't have to feel like i'm trying to change from the inside, than sticking with one of the big 2 / other 1 just because they're the only 'viable' options. I'm hoping in the long term that might change.
Good luck with that. In the years since 1831 (And that's a lot of years) America has only gone through 3 party systems. But that's America, I don't know about England.
No better way to start the day than with a 16 year old smashing your hopes and dreams...!

Nah, I realise it's a long shot, but as I say, I don't think the current main parties offer anything like what I believe. Maybe in time the Tories or Lib Dems will reposition and i'll reconsider supporting them, but for now I'd rather be involved in something representative of my views. They've changed plenty this last year though so who knows!

Genuinely impressive poncy education you have there though, when I was 16 I was only interested in getting stoned and watching Tartan Asia Extreme films.


I've kind of just accepted the Republican Party as the best of the worst right now in the US, though the party is going through a huge crisis. To me, economic issues are more important that social issues, simply because I don't feel like social issues are that easy to change (eg. I don't think a Conservative President will be able to get Roe vs Wade overturned, but I do think that if this healthcare plan passes, it could ruin many industries).

And thank you :). I don't know. I've never seen the appeal of alcohol or drugs. It all seems very silly to me, which is another question I would have for Frank. From what I've heard, he gets drunk all the time. I don't really understand why, but that seems like too personal a question to ask.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

Pete
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Post by Pete » Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:57 pm

Surely you must be more in Ron Paul's camp no? Or do you have zero hope of no one other than Republican / Democrat? What's Row v Wade?

I guess what you have to ask yourself is just because they're hard to change, does that make them less or more worthy a focus? Take the attitude of both the US and the UK towards race and sexuality, two of the biggest issues of the last 100 years - do you not think they were worth changing more than any economic issue you can possibly think of? I'd argue equality of opportunity is the key thing I believe in - In my ideal society people would all be given the same chance to achieve what they can from life and what they make of it is their responsibility. This is what pushes me towards Libertarianism. It's utopic and unrealistic I realise, but what gets me is those on the left who are obsessed with splitting the ends rather than the means - I am pretty fucking relieved I work for an investment fund as opposed to a bank right now as this afternoon it's been decided that anyone who works for what the govt define as a bank will be taxed an additional 50% of their bonus if it's over £25k, which is fucking crazy in my books. Banks such as Barclays went out of their way to gain additional capital from private sources without relying on bailouts yet any of their staff who have worked all hours god sends to help them pay off the debt (which they have now done) and turn back into a profitable bank will now get punished.

Drink / Drugs / etc. Fair play on your views and I wish you all the luck in the world in sticking with them. I can't answer for Frank but from a personal viewpoint... It's fun, I think is as simple a response as I could give. Not that life isn't fun without alcohol and drugs, but, well, it's a whole lot less so! As for Frank, my bet would be he has no choice, every time I see him I smack a drink into his hand and I'd guess it's the same most way around the world. I genuinely don't know how he does it, I had 3 drinks on Monday night and felt like death on Tuesday, but Frank appears able to go around the world drinking almost non-stop.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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Post by ZaryAnne » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:05 pm

Pete wrote:Surely you must be more in Ron Paul's camp no? Or do you have zero hope of no one other than Republican / Democrat? What's Row v Wade?

I guess what you have to ask yourself is just because they're hard to change, does that make them less or more worthy a focus? Take the attitude of both the US and the UK towards race and sexuality, two of the biggest issues of the last 100 years - do you not think they were worth changing more than any economic issue you can possibly think of? I'd argue equality of opportunity is the key thing I believe in - In my ideal society people would all be given the same chance to achieve what they can from life and what they make of it is their responsibility. This is what pushes me towards Libertarianism. It's utopic and unrealistic I realise, but what gets me is those on the left who are obsessed with splitting the ends rather than the means - I am pretty fucking relieved I work for an investment fund as opposed to a bank right now as this afternoon it's been decided that anyone who works for what the govt define as a bank will be taxed an additional 50% of their bonus if it's over £25k, which is fucking crazy in my books. Banks such as Barclays went out of their way to gain additional capital from private sources without relying on bailouts yet any of their staff who have worked all hours god sends to help them pay off the debt (which they have now done) and turn back into a profitable bank will now get punished.

Drink / Drugs / etc. Fair play on your views and I wish you all the luck in the world in sticking with them. I can't answer for Frank but from a personal viewpoint... It's fun, I think is as simple a response as I could give. Not that life isn't fun without alcohol and drugs, but, well, it's a whole lot less so! As for Frank, my bet would be he has no choice, every time I see him I smack a drink into his hand and I'd guess it's the same most way around the world. I genuinely don't know how he does it, I had 3 drinks on Monday night and felt like death on Tuesday, but Frank appears able to go around the world drinking almost non-stop.
First of all, I am so jealous that you actually know him... Lol. Second of all, Roe v. Wade is the supreme court case in the US that made abortion legal (put basically). And I feel like you have a better chance of not having crazy taxes (like the one you mentioned) under a Republican government (simply because Republicans are usually "controlled" by private companies who would stop giving them money if any such laws were passed. Bailouts are stupid. Yes, it sucks a lot of people lose their jobs, and I'm not taking that lightly, but economies go through depressions all the time, and it is the leadership in such a depression that changes the views of the people in it. Obama is making it okay to be jobless and leaching off tax payers; in my opinion, it is not.

Finally, I don't know about the whole "life is more fun with drugs and alcohol." I mean, it's not like I've never drunk. (Never touched drugs, though.) I've just found, at least at my age, they always lead to stupid drama, and someone needs to be sober to clean it all up. I would rather spend my money on things that bring me overall pleasure than one-second fixes. That's just me. I don't knock any adults who drink etc, because it's legal, so it's their decision, however, I no longer associate with any underage drinker/druggies; it's just too much work.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:14 pm

Pete wrote:
I guess what you have to ask yourself is just because they're hard to change, does that make them less or more worthy a focus? Take the attitude of both the US and the UK towards race and sexuality, two of the biggest issues of the last 100 years - do you not think they were worth changing more than any economic issue you can possibly think of? I'd argue equality of opportunity is the key thing I believe in - In my ideal society people would all be given the same chance to achieve what they can from life and what they make of it is their responsibility. This is what pushes me towards Libertarianism. It's utopic and unrealistic I realise, but what gets me is those on the left who are obsessed with splitting the ends rather than the means - I am pretty fucking relieved I work for an investment fund as opposed to a bank right now as this afternoon it's been decided that anyone who works for what the govt define as a bank will be taxed an additional 50% of their bonus if it's over £25k, which is fucking crazy in my books. Banks such as Barclays went out of their way to gain additional capital from private sources without relying on bailouts yet any of their staff who have worked all hours god sends to help them pay off the debt (which they have now done) and turn back into a profitable bank will now get punished.
Oh, and I meant all of the good things currently are hard to revert back into bad. ie. Roe vs. Wade. But I think America has come a long way as far as racism and sexuality. I mean, we're still working on single-sex marriages, but that's a state issue, not a federal government one. And it's definitely worse to be racist in most states than it is to be a minority, so it's not that their non-issues; they just aren't pressing issues in the federal government anymore. Hell, we have a black president, who got 93% of the black votes in the country. Only about 70% of black registered voters are Democrats. I see that as racist that people would vote for him ONLY for the color of his skin. Personally, I've never really recognized race as a good judge of everything. It's the same as judging people based on their hair color- neither makes any sense.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

Pete
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Post by Pete » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:19 pm

Hahaha, it's not hard to get to chat to Mr Turner, just go to a show in the States and shout at him, he'll respond eventually!

I agree in the current climate it's cut backs rather than increased public expenditure that is required. Britain is so royally fucked when quantitive easing ends, we will have loads of debt and no one who wants to buy it, unless we whack interest rates up which will destroy any growth, leave a load of people homeless and the country on it's knees. I see absolutely no way out of it now.

Would you want abortion to be made illegal? That's a pretty hard right thing, I certainly wouldn't be keen on that.

Also, what about Ron Paul?! He's as close to an Ayn Rand philosophy as you're going to get in the states.

My comment on drink / drugs was somewhat flippant... I think attitudes are different in the UK to the US and it's quite hard to explain, I think there is less of a cultural divide. Everyone I know has a vice, whether it be drink, fags, drugs or all of them. There are very very few who indulge in none, and I think as a result you get used to it and it becomes more managable (on a personal level) as people aren't flipping out all over the place. In fact it's only alcohol where you really tend to see the more troublesome elements of society when under the influence (i realise that's a massive generalisation, but i'm okay with that).

One-second fixes though? That's some rubbish drugs you be taking ;)

Finally... Ah, being described by someone as an adult, rather depressing - believe me, I don't think I'll ever think of myself as an 'adult', just a kid in a failing vessel. But legality should never be the issue, we've already discussed just how little governments know about what is best for the people of a country and alcohol and drugs policies are other fantastic examples. It should be legalised and regulated, solving so many of the ills of the world in one.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

Pete
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Post by Pete » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:23 pm

ZaryAnne wrote:
Pete wrote:
I guess what you have to ask yourself is just because they're hard to change, does that make them less or more worthy a focus? Take the attitude of both the US and the UK towards race and sexuality, two of the biggest issues of the last 100 years - do you not think they were worth changing more than any economic issue you can possibly think of? I'd argue equality of opportunity is the key thing I believe in - In my ideal society people would all be given the same chance to achieve what they can from life and what they make of it is their responsibility. This is what pushes me towards Libertarianism. It's utopic and unrealistic I realise, but what gets me is those on the left who are obsessed with splitting the ends rather than the means - I am pretty fucking relieved I work for an investment fund as opposed to a bank right now as this afternoon it's been decided that anyone who works for what the govt define as a bank will be taxed an additional 50% of their bonus if it's over £25k, which is fucking crazy in my books. Banks such as Barclays went out of their way to gain additional capital from private sources without relying on bailouts yet any of their staff who have worked all hours god sends to help them pay off the debt (which they have now done) and turn back into a profitable bank will now get punished.
Oh, and I meant all of the good things currently are hard to revert back into bad. ie. Roe vs. Wade. But I think America has come a long way as far as racism and sexuality. I mean, we're still working on single-sex marriages, but that's a state issue, not a federal government one. And it's definitely worse to be racist in most states than it is to be a minority, so it's not that their non-issues; they just aren't pressing issues in the federal government anymore. Hell, we have a black president, who got 93% of the black votes in the country. Only about 70% of black registered voters are Democrats. I see that as racist that people would vote for him ONLY for the color of his skin. Personally, I've never really recognized race as a good judge of everything. It's the same as judging people based on their hair color- neither makes any sense.
Ah good, ignore my question for clarification on that one then. Totally agree with you on the race thing, things such as positive discrimination are a very real danger when we're trying to eradicate racism.
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:27 pm

Pete wrote:Hahaha, it's not hard to get to chat to Mr Turner, just go to a show in the States and shout at him, he'll respond eventually!

I agree in the current climate it's cut backs rather than increased public expenditure that is required. Britain is so royally fucked when quantitive easing ends, we will have loads of debt and no one who wants to buy it, unless we whack interest rates up which will destroy any growth, leave a load of people homeless and the country on it's knees. I see absolutely no way out of it now.

Would you want abortion to be made illegal? That's a pretty hard right thing, I certainly wouldn't be keen on that.

Also, what about Ron Paul?! He's as close to an Ayn Rand philosophy as you're going to get in the states.

My comment on drink / drugs was somewhat flippant... I think attitudes are different in the UK to the US and it's quite hard to explain, I think there is less of a cultural divide. Everyone I know has a vice, whether it be drink, fags, drugs or all of them. There are very very few who indulge in none, and I think as a result you get used to it and it becomes more managable (on a personal level) as people aren't flipping out all over the place. In fact it's only alcohol where you really tend to see the more troublesome elements of society when under the influence (i realise that's a massive generalisation, but i'm okay with that).

One-second fixes though? That's some rubbish drugs you be taking ;)

Finally... Ah, being described by someone as an adult, rather depressing - believe me, I don't think I'll ever think of myself as an 'adult', just a kid in a failing vessel. But legality should never be the issue, we've already discussed just how little governments know about what is best for the people of a country and alcohol and drugs policies are other fantastic examples. It should be legalised and regulated, solving so many of the ills of the world in one.

No no no. I'm pro choice. Well, rather, it's complicated. I'm pro life, but I don't think the government has the right to decide what a woman does, so basically, I'm pro choice, but my choice is pro-life. Anyway, I think abortion should be legal up until 2/3 trimester.

And Ron Paul has no chance. I'd rather my vote, when I get it, not be wasted.

I think most people are really just big kids at heart, except they have a lot more responsibilities.

And California legalized medical marijuana. Now there is a store on basically every corner. People pay in cash, so it's impossible to tax anyway, and there are frequent robberies where drug dealers just steal all of the "stock" of the store. So, as great as that would be (And I'm not sure that's so great. I'm a fan of all my brain cells. They happen to be quite useful), I don't think it's quite possible yet. We have too much of a mindset that drugs are bad and really sketchy people sell them cheaper that "wholesome" med-mar stores?
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

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