Politics?

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Is representational democracy the best form of government and is capitalism the best economic system?

Both together provide for the optimal society
3
25%
Democracy is the best form of government, but Capitalism leads to corruption
7
58%
Capitalism is the most profitable economic system for all, but Democracy leads to Anarchy and uninformed and unjust laws.
0
No votes
Both Capitalism and Democracy have severe issues, and societies would be better off searching for alternative forms of government and economy
2
17%
 
Total votes: 12

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:36 pm

Pete wrote:
I think people do get food though. I don't think people physically starve to death en masse in the States or the UK. I see where you're coming from though. I would argue there is plenty of money for healthcare and a level of support for those truly in need that can be supplied through minimal taxation and the removal of massive wastes of money and beaurocracy(sp?). You think of how much the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have cost us. How much the various Star Wars projects cost. For the UK, the 3% of welfare cash that the state admit goes on 'fraud / mistaken claims' (not to mention the other glaring flaws with the Welfare state discussed above). I don't know if you have 'QUANGOS' in the States but I'd recommend looking them up for your essay - they have essentially been used in the UK to create huge organisations paying their staff very high wages to wrap areas of government policy in so much red tape and beaurocracy at a cost of billions upon billions of pounds (although they're obviously all necessary according to DA).

In fact, think of the totally ludicrous amounts that have been squandered on saving reckless banks and that's about to be spent in environmental taxes. In my view at least, I'd rather look at cutting these and helping the genuinely poor of society, which I think can be done.

Edit: Zary? Really? Z isn't even close to M on a keyboard ;)
And there's such a thing as emergency rooms, which while being highly ineffective, protects people from "dying in mass in the streets." I think what countries like the US need to look into are cheap healthcare options, not public ones. Healthcare reform is necessary, but a public, tax-funded option is not. It gives the government way too much control in a HUGE portion of our economy.

And yes, Zary. It's pronounced like "sorry" but with a zzz in the beginning.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

Pete
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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:41 pm

It's quite interesting to hear an American talk about this. Over here we tend to hear Obama or people abusing Fox News. We get very little exposure to middle America (or wherever in the States you're from!) as I'm sure you hear little about us guys.

Is Obama struggling in the ratings as much as the polls and recent elections seem to imply? Are people over there severely pissed that he is going to be able to have carte blanche with regards levying taxes after Copenhagen? At least I think I read that somewhere, something to do with it being a matter that didn't require senate approval. Which is completely crazy in my view...

Ok, Zorry it is...
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:57 pm

Pete wrote:It's quite interesting to hear an American talk about this. Over here we tend to hear Obama or people abusing Fox News. We get very little exposure to middle America (or wherever in the States you're from!) as I'm sure you hear little about us guys.

Is Obama struggling in the ratings as much as the polls and recent elections seem to imply? Are people over there severely pissed that he is going to be able to have carte blanche with regards levying taxes after Copenhagen? At least I think I read that somewhere, something to do with it being a matter that didn't require senate approval. Which is completely crazy in my view...

Ok, Zorry it is...
I don't think I can be considered much of "middle America." I'll totally discredit myself in saying this, but I'm a 16 year old girl who currently goes to what is considered the best school in the country (although it is crazily liberal).

I am, however, very into politics and I consider myself pretty well-informed. His ratings are severely dropping, mostly because he's "messed up" so much that people no longer call those who hate him racists, as they used to. Though, if he gets this healthcare bill passed or if we succeed in Afghanistan, he can definitely run for office again. Other than those two political actions, he has no shot for re-election. However, no one really likes the whole let's send 30,000 troops to Afghanistan thing. It's going to cost too much money. 1 million dollars a year per soldier.

And Obama has already passed legislation against the Constitution before (taxation without representation *well, technically, it's the DoI* of the AIG execs), so the fact that he might be trying to do something like that again doesn't surprise me, but I don't know enough about it.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

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Tomasz
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Post by Tomasz » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:03 pm

ZaryAnne wrote:I would love for people to be able to be cured even if they don't have the money. The sad fact is, it's just not possible. Other countries have done it, and when the rich people of those countries get sick, they come to America because doctors in America have an incentive to be great; they want to make more money.
So many flaws in this.

a) yes it is possible, it works here. (no, it's not perfect, but then, what is?!)

b) Our doctors make something like £100k a year, $162,963 at the current exchange rate. They're not poor.

c) When people get sick here, they get treated here. At most they go to BUPA (private health care), because then they get better food and fitter (British colloquialism for more attractive) nurses. Fine, good for them, as long as the basic standard of free health care is ok no problem with rich people being able to pay more.
Pete wrote:Sometimes, I wish I was a dog on a swing.

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Tomasz
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Post by Tomasz » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:08 pm

ZaryAnne wrote:what is considered the best school in the country (although it is crazily liberal).
Better than Phillips Exeter?

And I doubt it even scratches the surface of liberal!
Pete wrote:Sometimes, I wish I was a dog on a swing.

Pete
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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:08 pm

I imagine if Barry is lurking he'll be back here in a shot.

I don't think age is something to necessarily discredit yourself, although Poser hasn't done 16 year old girls the whole world of favours of late.

One thing I would say though is that you might feel a bit differently regarding healthcare had you not been fortunate enough to be born to what I'm assuming to be a relatively wealthy family (unless you're on a Frank-style scholarship).

Success in Afghanistan isn't exactly possible, is it? I mean, they're all just going to lie low for a couple of years, we'll pull out, Taliban will move back in and we'll quietly not mention it for a decade or two until someone else decides to have another crack at Afghanistan.

Think climate taxes will be more far-reaching than most of what has come before. Will be interesting to see how the States reacts when Al Gore carries on raking it in...
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:10 pm

Tomasz wrote:
ZaryAnne wrote:I would love for people to be able to be cured even if they don't have the money. The sad fact is, it's just not possible. Other countries have done it, and when the rich people of those countries get sick, they come to America because doctors in America have an incentive to be great; they want to make more money.
So many flaws in this.

a) yes it is possible, it works here. (no, it's not perfect, but then, what is?!)

b) Our doctors make something like £100k a year, $162,963 at the current exchange rate. They're not poor.

c) When people get sick here, they get treated here. At most they go to BUPA (private health care), because then they get better food and fitter (British colloquialism for more attractive) nurses. Fine, good for them, as long as the basic standard of free health care is ok no problem with rich people being able to pay more.
I found normal hospital nurses WAY fitter than private healthcare nurses, for the record!
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:14 pm

Tomasz wrote:
ZaryAnne wrote:I would love for people to be able to be cured even if they don't have the money. The sad fact is, it's just not possible. Other countries have done it, and when the rich people of those countries get sick, they come to America because doctors in America have an incentive to be great; they want to make more money.
So many flaws in this.

a) yes it is possible, it works here. (no, it's not perfect, but then, what is?!)

b) Our doctors make something like £100k a year, $162,963 at the current exchange rate. They're not poor.

c) When people get sick here, they get treated here. At most they go to BUPA (private health care), because then they get better food and fitter (British colloquialism for more attractive) nurses. Fine, good for them, as long as the basic standard of free health care is ok no problem with rich people being able to pay more.
a) Sorry, correction, I don't think it would work in America. Different cultures. American's are greedy and self-entitled, often even those who can't afford primary insurance. (Example: a friend of mine's mother is making a gripe about needing a free, public option, but goes to 5 concerts a year and has a plasma screen tv) I'm not saying there should not be health care for everyone, just that with our government and culture, it's in near impossible. Consider Medicare, basically healthcare for old people that's government funded (aka, taxpayer funded). It's a ponzee scheme. As shown in history, schemes do not work. Again, not vouching for no healthcare, ju ponzee st not a PUBLICLY funded one. I think everyone should have healthcare, it would save the rest of us a ton of money, but putting the government in charge of such things has proven a bad idea. (Example: ACORN).

b) I don't know much about the British system; the only example I could counter is someone I know sent their child dying of testicular cancer to the US because in England, they couldn't see a specialist for like 4 years due to long lines. Things like that happen in Canada too.

c) "free healthcare" is a loaded term, because it might be free to them, but the people who already could pay for their own healthcare night have to pay double-fold to support them, which some might argue is not bad.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:15 pm

Tomasz wrote:
ZaryAnne wrote:what is considered the best school in the country (although it is crazily liberal).
Better than Phillips Exeter?

And I doubt it even scratches the surface of liberal!
Lol. Yes. Definitely. And only 2/500 of our teachers consider themselves "Conservative" in a blind poll...
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

Pete
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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:18 pm

The main thing that often gets missed is exactly what you point out, the States and Britain are so different when it comes to healthcare it's very difficult to compare. I think a country as small and densely populated as the UK is an entirely different animal to the States, which is why i do get annoyed when discussing the failings of the NHS and people immediately retort with the inequities of the US system. It's not an either or (although, i'll say again, i'm not quite sure what the other ways are)
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:18 pm

Pete wrote:
One thing I would say though is that you might feel a bit differently regarding healthcare had you not been fortunate enough to be born to what I'm assuming to be a relatively wealthy family (unless you're on a Frank-style scholarship).
Valid argument, my mother is CEO of an international company, but I tend to believe I am mostly unbiased in regards to social classes, since I review my opinions based on facts/figures. If anything, I think it gives me a better scope of how things can be and what it will cost to get them there. The ObamaCare plan is going to destroy domestic companies.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

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Tomasz
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Post by Tomasz » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:19 pm

Pete wrote:
Allan wrote:Well I'll start by outing myself as a Liberal Democrat which, depending who you speak to <Winks> is still a party promoting Liberalism in the UK.
Allan, not sure if you've heard of Charlotte Gore before. She was one of the few Lib Dems I had quite a bit of time for. Here's a blog post of hers last week, sums up a lot of what I feel about the Liberal *Cough Social Cough* Democrats...

http://charlottegore.com/2009/12/01/tha ... ke-me.html
So you'd be on the "revolution. now." bandwagon?
Pete wrote:Sometimes, I wish I was a dog on a swing.

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Post by Pete » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:22 pm

Tomasz wrote:
Pete wrote:
Allan wrote:Well I'll start by outing myself as a Liberal Democrat which, depending who you speak to <Winks> is still a party promoting Liberalism in the UK.
Allan, not sure if you've heard of Charlotte Gore before. She was one of the few Lib Dems I had quite a bit of time for. Here's a blog post of hers last week, sums up a lot of what I feel about the Liberal *Cough Social Cough* Democrats...

http://charlottegore.com/2009/12/01/tha ... ke-me.html
So you'd be on the "revolution. now." bandwagon?
Sorry, what are my choices here?!

And Zary - any vacancies at your mum's place?! Could do with moving somewhere that's not about to start taxing me 70%!
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

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ZaryAnne
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Post by ZaryAnne » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:26 pm

Pete wrote:
And Zary - any vacancies at your mum's place?! Could do with moving somewhere that's not about to start taxing me 70%!
Unfortunately, looks like America is going in that direction. We have facilities in Scotland, Brazil, Singapore, India, and China (and US).

I recommend Singapore, though, by far the most beautiful and capitalistically-driven country in the world. I think I'm gonna move there out of college.
“Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
Benjamin Franklin

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Tomasz
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Post by Tomasz » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:28 pm

Pete wrote:Sorry, what are my choices here?!
Yes or no :)

Your problem with the liberal democrats seems to be (based on Charlotte Gore's site) that they don't go far enough, that what we need is a total revolution (as in massive, total change; maybe not guns and so forth...). Yay, or nay, or other?
Pete wrote:Sometimes, I wish I was a dog on a swing.

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