No more page 3

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Christina
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:21 am

No more page 3

Post by Christina » Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:16 am

Hi,

So what are all your thoughts on the no more page 3 campaign?
Bob.

Venomous_Bear
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:07 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: No more page 3

Post by Venomous_Bear » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:18 pm

It's a two-parter, then. Sorry.

This could get long, but I'm waiting for a synchronization to finish. So...I'm going to zoom out, and then zoom in.

I had to look this up. Hahaha. On the second last page of the Toronto Sun, there is the "Sunshine Girl", who is just an attractive person they find and interview on the street, and is wearing a bikini or tank top. This has caused enough of an outcry over the years, trust me. To hear about that kind of nudity in a similar newspaper is actually pretty funny. Shattering the stereotypes we had in mind of the motherland :)

The thing is...oh boy. Here I go arguing with myself.

On one hand, feminism gets this horrible fucking name. I'm a feminist (and if you believe women should be equal in society, so are you, it's just a stupid name for it), but I can take a joke. Like if people make the "get back in the fluffy kitten" joke, I respond back wittily, but I get that MOST men don't mean that shit when they say it, and if they do, they can go fuck themselves, I'll just prove them wrong. If someone hits on me or makes a comment or something, USUALLY it is NOT sexual harassment...usually it's funny. Innuendo is an underappreciated, lost dark art. When it comes to nudity, to each their own. If ladies want to bare everything and get paid for it, men will pay to see that stuff. There should be no judgment for this. Hooray! BUT.

HERE is where I get upset.

It's just body parts. The fact that society has made it taboo/wrong/filthy to show such things, and that the women is considered an object that is now devalued for baring herself is just fucked right up, but it's not new. So yes, Page 3 is intended to be erotic, but...it shouldn't really be a big deal? Now naked breasts are ALWAYS sexual? Are the paintings of the Renaissance censored? You've got people upset that women are breastfeeding in public, because it makes them uncomfortable, because things are now apparently hypersexualized. What??!

(To be continued when I figure out what's wrong with...oh never mind. I see now. I wrote inappropriate things)
Toronto (x3), Hatfield, Derry, London (x2), Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Detroit, Buffalo, Boston (x4), Ottawa, Fake London, Nottingham, Manchester, Portsmouth

Venomous_Bear
Posts: 452
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: No more page 3

Post by Venomous_Bear » Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:30 pm

(continued)

To a degree, this will always be a double standard, because men are visual and have certain instinctual reactions upon seeing certain attributes, whilst...most women don't. It's actually pretty hilarious to think about. There will never be sexual equality, because we don't function the same way. So I didn't think this was a big problem, until I went to a festival this summer. Two separate breast-related incidents (how fitting):

1. Witnessed a mother breastfeeding and being kicked out of said festival, because it was "not the place" to commit such an act (REALLY?? The act of feeding a kid?). In response, watch this, by the way. It's amazing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiS8q_fifa0

2. A very talented young female musician had to endure drunken "show us your tits" catcalls. She handled it really well, but HONESTLY. That's not a fucking compliment. That's heartbreaking. She's trying to do her job. It is the height of rudeness (my point here being that there is still a perception with some men that women are there for entertainment, and that there is only one thing of value a woman could provide. Booooo to these particular men.)

So. I consider festivals to be a microcosm... a pretty representative sample of society. Maybe there is a higher hipster ratio, but still. Back to the point. Does removing the nudity on the third page of a national newspaper do any good? Does scrubbing the UK of porn on the internet do any good? I don't think so. I say...if a little kid is looking through the paper and sees naked breasts, let him/her look and get normalized to the freaking human body, without being ashamed. We need to start this for the next generation. It's just naked breasts. Mind you, if the same kid gets on the internet and sees some crazy [bad things that the forum decided I shouldn't write related to things I've seen on the interweb regarding animated nakedfolk] film...uhhh, significant issue. Let's LOCK that shit, because denying access to something that is already rampant means illegal activity to obtain such things just increases...and law enforcement is already overstepping freedoms in other regards... But actually, maybe we could do without the snuff part [see? Bad things. I was a search engine evaluator for a time. Scarred for life.] altogether? Maybe? I'm out of breath, and I'm only typing. My point is: the human body is beautiful, whilst ze pr0ns are...well, the intent is obvious. Kids should (and DO) see the first and are not scarred, but could potentially be from the latter. Lock pr0nz for the younguns, but leave it for every single adult human who seeks it.

So...no. I don't agree. Let there be naked breasts, and let people look if they want to look. Maybe they could put a post-it advertisement over them, so you have to peel it off if you want to see? That's an interactive game right there. Look at us, we're saving the newspaper industry. And if you REALLY don't want to play, don't buy the paper!

Sorry for the massive clusterfucking can of worms this was.
Toronto (x3), Hatfield, Derry, London (x2), Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Detroit, Buffalo, Boston (x4), Ottawa, Fake London, Nottingham, Manchester, Portsmouth

sarahg
Posts: 367
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Re: No more page 3

Post by sarahg » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:43 pm

Bear you have really cracked me up, I am breathless just reading your rant!
To be honest I agree with you in the main, however my gripe is that firstly body image in the media concerns me, if young folks think that skinny big boobed girls are the norm it puts pressure on the girls to conform.
Also the awful rag should be binned, let alone just page three!

Venomous_Bear
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:07 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: No more page 3

Post by Venomous_Bear » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:59 pm

Hahahaha I'm so sorry. I really must blog and stop vomiting tangents on the forum. A lot of the time, I have no idea what I really think about things until I write about them. I weep for the mobile users.

I AGREE though. But unhealthy perceptions of the ideal body type are often perpetuated by females, not males. Most dudes I talk to don't fantasize about banging a skeleton, regardless of what moves around up top.
Toronto (x3), Hatfield, Derry, London (x2), Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Detroit, Buffalo, Boston (x4), Ottawa, Fake London, Nottingham, Manchester, Portsmouth

ScarletPlanetMoon
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Location: Birstall, West Yorkshire

Re: No more page 3

Post by ScarletPlanetMoon » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:12 pm

I did a whole module at uni on the body and society at uni... was actually quite interesting. Even if I was the only one arguing my point sometimes. Be prepared for a post of conflicting views.

I agree with VB, for the most part. The only reason that page three was ever a problem was because our societies over-sexualised a woman's body. There is nothing different (anatomically at least) between a woman's breast and a man's. I have no issue with a woman taking her top off and splattering the pictures all over the newpapers, if she so chooses. As long as she is not being exploited, is getting the correct pay, and being looked after and all that, I guess it's up to her.

What does annoy me about page three though, is that it portrays the belief that a woman's body is an object purely for a man's satisfaction. If the tables were flipped and it was a topless man on page 3, firstly no-one would blink an eye. Because it is perfectly normal for a man to have his top off in public. You lonely have to look down the street on a hot sunny day and you'll more than likely see a man with his top off. Hell, male musicians regularly perform topless. But it if that was a woman, chances are she'd be arrested for indecent exposure. Another point, it seems perfectly okay for a kid to run around a beach or similar in nothing but a nappy, including female kids. Why? Because her breasts haven't grown yet.

As for breastfeeding, it's the most natural fucking thing in the world. It's what they're there for. Same with sex. It happens. It's natural. Get over it.

It pisses me off that many men think that they have a right to a woman's body, in such a way that street harassment such as catcalling is seen as 'normal'. Page 3 just seems to solidify the fact that a man can essentially buy a woman's body.

Another gripe of I have of the portrayal of woman's bodies in the media. The media seem to do a damn good job of attempting (and succeeding in a scarily large number of cases) to show what a woman 'should' look like. The media's portrayal of women full stop just makes people believe that a woman is supposed to be subordinate to a man in most aspects of life. They are expected to look after the man, to cook and clean for him, to look a certain way to please him. Generally women are expected to answer to men in whatever whims he might have. And that is wrong.

Having said all that, I also think that a woman's body needs to be de-sexualised (for want of a better word). It needs to be seen as exactly what it is. Flesh and blood, nothing more. Every single inch of a woman's body is normal. It needs to be seen as normal. A man's body is seen as normal, so why can't a woman's? after all, there are cultures where it's perfectly fine (sometimes expected) to walk round totally naked. I'm not suggesting we have that here - we'd freeze to death, for one - but maybe a little ease on the whole 'no you can't see that' shit.

They can ban page three as much as they like but ultimately it wont change anything in the immediate future, because patriarchy is too ingrained in our culture. Old habits die hard and all that.
I'm no good at thinking of something funny enough for these things.
http://www.hellyeahjlandtss.tumblr.com

Venomous_Bear
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:07 am
Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: No more page 3

Post by Venomous_Bear » Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:58 pm

Isn't there a song about this? Something about tired fixations and weak accusations?
Toronto (x3), Hatfield, Derry, London (x2), Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Detroit, Buffalo, Boston (x4), Ottawa, Fake London, Nottingham, Manchester, Portsmouth

reitzel6570
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Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:46 pm
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

Re: No more page 3

Post by reitzel6570 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:07 pm

ScarletPlanetMoon wrote:As for breastfeeding, it's the most natural fucking thing in the world. It's what they're there for. Same with sex. It happens. It's natural. Get over it.
This. My mother-in-law, who told me that breastfeeding wasn't "natural" and doing so would deprive children of the essential nutrients that formula has, followed me around the house with my newborn son in her arms, pretending to be him saying "Mommy, you're starving me! I need formula." The kid turned out just fine, folks (aside from his apparent dislike of Frank Turner music, but no one is perfect).

And then there was my co-worker, who refused to even try breastfeeding because she thought of breasts as a sexual part of her body, not a place for babies.

helentx
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Re: No more page 3

Post by helentx » Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:38 am


Pete
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Re: No more page 3

Post by Pete » Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:09 am

I feel like I've stumbled onto the Vagenda...
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

Venomous_Bear
Posts: 452
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: No more page 3

Post by Venomous_Bear » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:08 pm

Pete wrote:I feel like I've stumbled onto the Vagenda...
Silly Pete, this is a tits-only discussion. You should really stay abreast of the topic at hand.
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Pete
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Re: No more page 3

Post by Pete » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:23 pm

The fact I know what the Vagenda is, is soul-crushing enough.

I don't like people being defined by race, gender, religion, nationality or sexuality. I find active feminists fall into this bracket.

I'm also aware that i'm in a rather privileged position as a white, Christian, straight (honestly) British male living in England.

I suppose I just think that there's a lot more in the world worth worrying about and far greater inequalities to deal with. The fight against oppression of people based on any of the above birth traits has progressed beyond recognition in the Western world in the last couple of generations and is continuing as time goes on. Developing countries are already working to catch up despite being a long way behind (actually the silver lining of the Delhi rape case is seeing how the country is repulsed by what happened when all reports indicate it had been going on historically with people barely batting an eyelid). It shouldn't necessarily be forced with positive discrimination and illiberal attacks on what i view as largely irrelevant matters such as page 3. If we can be enraged about drunk people not being allowed to get tattoos, why not actually be enraged about sober women not being allowed to use a decent set of tits to get a few quid?
frank wrote:Think of it like weight-lifting. High notes are heavy weights.

AliceE67
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:24 pm

Re: No more page 3

Post by AliceE67 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:18 pm

yup...afterall it is natural for most men to like and look at boobies, so what if it sells newspapers boobies can sell anything.

Venomous_Bear
Posts: 452
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: No more page 3

Post by Venomous_Bear » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:45 pm

Pete wrote:The fact I know what the Vagenda is, is soul-crushing enough.

I don't like people being defined by race, gender, religion, nationality or sexuality. I find active feminists fall into this bracket.

I'm also aware that i'm in a rather privileged position as a white, Christian, straight (honestly) British male living in England.

I suppose I just think that there's a lot more in the world worth worrying about and far greater inequalities to deal with. The fight against oppression of people based on any of the above birth traits has progressed beyond recognition in the Western world in the last couple of generations and is continuing as time goes on. Developing countries are already working to catch up despite being a long way behind (actually the silver lining of the Delhi rape case is seeing how the country is repulsed by what happened when all reports indicate it had been going on historically with people barely batting an eyelid). It shouldn't necessarily be forced with positive discrimination and illiberal attacks on what i view as largely irrelevant matters such as page 3. If we can be enraged about drunk people not being allowed to get tattoos, why not actually be enraged about sober women not being allowed to use a decent set of tits to get a few quid?
Very well-said. To each their freaking own.
Toronto (x3), Hatfield, Derry, London (x2), Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Detroit, Buffalo, Boston (x4), Ottawa, Fake London, Nottingham, Manchester, Portsmouth

Evan
Posts: 1828
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:06 pm

Re: No more page 3

Post by Evan » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:26 pm

So I am not going to read any of this and just presume we are all here because we love boobs in our newspapers?

BOOBS AND NEWS! BOOBS AND NEWS!! HOOORRRRAAAAYYYYY!!!

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