Tattoo Ban

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Gleena
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by Gleena » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:45 am

agirlnamedfred wrote: But I don't see the marginalization of a party as helpful in the end though. The end I have in sight, when I'm not blinking back tears of impending defeat anyway, is one in which people embrace the idea that the government doesn't control them.
Amen to that.

The problem is the Republicans in their current iteration have marginalised themselves. Remember that even the current president is the equivalent of a Reagan republican. There's no useful anywhere to turn.

I use red state as shorthand for Southern conservative ignorance, a phrase which I thank Darlenet for immensely.
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agirlnamedfred
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by agirlnamedfred » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:50 am

Gleena wrote:
agirlnamedfred wrote: But I don't see the marginalization of a party as helpful in the end though. The end I have in sight, when I'm not blinking back tears of impending defeat anyway, is one in which people embrace the idea that the government doesn't control them.
Amen to that.

The problem is the Republicans in their current iteration have marginalised themselves. Remember that even the current president is the equivalent of a Reagan republican. There's no useful anywhere to turn.

I use red state as shorthand for Southern conservative ignorance, a phrase which I thank Darlenet for immensely.
I certainly don't view the current president as the equivalent of a Reagan Republican (although I don't revere Reagan as so many do). The last 2 presidents, one each party and both very guilty, have done more to further the cause of statism in our country than anyone since the revered but misguided FDR. Statism is the enemy in my eyes, regardless of the color of their party's emblem. I suspect even those yellow fellows will fail on occasion if given enough time. Fighting between the two (or more) parties and getting lost in the endless details is but a distraction from the true story in my eyes. The general public see the reds wanting to control their bodies or the blues trying to control their pocketbooks or soda cups as the problem without recognizing that they are the very same problem. The solution cannot come until the problem is recognized.
Re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul. ~~Walt Whitman

Gleena
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by Gleena » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:43 am

agirlnamedfred wrote:
Gleena wrote:
agirlnamedfred wrote: But I don't see the marginalization of a party as helpful in the end though. The end I have in sight, when I'm not blinking back tears of impending defeat anyway, is one in which people embrace the idea that the government doesn't control them.
Amen to that.

The problem is the Republicans in their current iteration have marginalised themselves. Remember that even the current president is the equivalent of a Reagan republican. There's no useful anywhere to turn.

I use red state as shorthand for Southern conservative ignorance, a phrase which I thank Darlenet for immensely.
I certainly don't view the current president as the equivalent of a Reagan Republican (although I don't revere Reagan as so many do).
If you compare actual policies, they are quite similar. I'm not a huge fan of his, either.

I dunno, my politics continue to redevelop lately. And I find I have two very distinct sets of values, depending on which nationality I'm looking at. It's very strange.
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mankytoes
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by mankytoes » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:41 pm

metronome wrote:Wow, this is ridiculous. Some of the comments (I know, you should never read the comments) are equally baffling
Yeah, that second comment basically says "the government has to be a good parent and impose some boundaries". The government as a fucking parent? From an American! I thought the best thing about yanks was they didn't buy that bullshit...
If you're oh so fucking different, who cares what you have to say?

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agirlnamedfred
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by agirlnamedfred » Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:44 pm

mankytoes wrote:
metronome wrote:Wow, this is ridiculous. Some of the comments (I know, you should never read the comments) are equally baffling
Yeah, that second comment basically says "the government has to be a good parent and impose some boundaries". The government as a fucking parent? From an American! I thought the best thing about yanks was they didn't buy that bullshit...
If only... There are some of us but we are quickly becoming the minority.

I've heard New Zealand is pretty free. I admit it appeals. Especially since Frank plays there on occasion.
Re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul. ~~Walt Whitman

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LoveStreet
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by LoveStreet » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:16 pm

agirlnamedfred wrote:
mankytoes wrote:
metronome wrote:Wow, this is ridiculous. Some of the comments (I know, you should never read the comments) are equally baffling
Yeah, that second comment basically says "the government has to be a good parent and impose some boundaries". The government as a fucking parent? From an American! I thought the best thing about yanks was they didn't buy that bullshit...
If only... There are some of us but we are quickly becoming the minority.

I've heard New Zealand is pretty free. I admit it appeals. Especially since Frank plays there on occasion.
I wish we didn't have to deal with that bullshit. Where I work you're not even allowed to have crazy colored hair or facial piercings. I work in a freakin' grocery store! :P
(But our beginnings never know our ends!)

Gleena
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by Gleena » Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:34 pm

agirlnamedfred, I have been really thinking about this and I think I owe you a longer answer.

If you'd asked me last year, I was left leaning to the point of being a soft socialist. I'd have rolled my eyes at everything you said up there and backed away slowly making polite noises.

In the interim, I did Jurisprudence. It's the first time I put any real thought into basic freedoms and rights, the social contract and so forth. I spent some quality time with Hobbes and Locke, Jefferson, Kant and Austin. Also Ronald Dworkin, who at first blush would seem to be everything I thought was correct already, and I was predisposed to agree with him.

But the thing that stuck with me, the actual thing I took away from all that is that the social contract relies on coercion to function. By buying into the socialist point of view, I was willingly allowing them to coerce me - and others, who can't protect themselves - into doing what they want. I did a lot of reading about the actual obligation to obey the law, too, and the arguments for and the pretty solid arguments against (in the context of civil disobedience.)

And then I read some Jeremy Waldron (as part of the course) and many thing he said made sense - how the law was really just a function of politics, and how judges make decisions based on their political leanings and so on. So I've done some more reading since then as time permits of his thoughts on property and rights.

So when I say my political being is in flux, it really is. I can see what you're saying but I still have reservations. I need to do some more reading and thinking. I'm unwilling at this time to abandon the things I like about the social contract and socialism, and I have as yet to see all the benefits of smashing the state, which is what my punk anarchist lose grasp of politics was in my "yoof" as I was actually a fucking idiot. But I can really see and understand the basis of where you're coming from, and I think, maybe, I'm swinging around that way in my old age.

I'm not weaselling out, I'm still thinking. And to complicate matters I actually have a very different view of American vs Australian political theory (which has a lot to do with the differing cultures and constitutions of each country).

I will someday learn to express this more succinctly and less boringly, but there you go.
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darlenet.
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by darlenet. » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:26 am

Gleena wrote: I will someday learn to express this more succinctly and less boringly, but there you go.
Nah you won't; you're a lawyer, right? :wink: Seriously, that was a very well thought out explanation. I am also having a philosophical crisis regarding my politics, and have also been doing reading. I'm going to look into some of the sources you mention above. Thank God we have music, huh?

Darlene
shows? 90 so far...

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agirlnamedfred
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by agirlnamedfred » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:42 am

No worries, Gleena. I'm just some random (haha this originally said "ransom") music lover from Tennessee, not anyone whose beliefs on the topic matter in the least, to pretty much anyone lol, but I really appreciate your last comments.

I am in much the same situation as far as my political views being in flux. A decade ago I was very liberal in thinking, though I didn't really think about it. It just seemed morally "right" and those who didn't agree were just in it for themselves or at best naive. I didn't realize how naive *I* was. Since then I have been sliding toward (but not all the way to) anarchy; on any given day I may identify myself as a libertarian (small "l" to big "L"), classic liberal, anarchocapitalist, not quite full voluntaryist. And as a result, I have very few people with whom to actually speak about this. That makes it both easier and harder to solidify opinions if you know what I mean. I suspect 99% of those I see in real life have absolutely no clue what I think about politically. I try to stay quiet because if I open my mouth I am almost certain to draw blank stares. This thread is the most I think I've ever revealed in one place. Thanks for the conversation.

P.S. Molynieu and Rothbard are excellent, but I come to this actually more as a result of parenthood and reading about parenthood and alternative education than most any other reading.
Re-examine all you have been told at school or church or in any book, dismiss whatever insults your own soul. ~~Walt Whitman

Gleena
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Re: Tattoo Ban

Post by Gleena » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:33 pm

darlenet. wrote:
Gleena wrote: I will someday learn to express this more succinctly and less boringly, but there you go.
Nah you won't; you're a lawyer, right? :wink: Seriously, that was a very well thought out explanation. I am also having a philosophical crisis regarding my politics, and have also been doing reading. I'm going to look into some of the sources you mention above. Thank God we have music, huh?

Darlene
HAH, no, when I bill every six minutes, I will write all the words!
agirlnamedfred wrote:No worries, Gleena. I'm just some random (haha this originally said "ransom") music lover from Tennessee, not anyone whose beliefs on the topic matter in the least, to pretty much anyone lol, but I really appreciate your last comments.

...

P.S. Molynieu and Rothbard are excellent, but I come to this actually more as a result of parenthood and reading about parenthood and alternative education than most any other reading.
You're welcome, I enjoyed thinking about it. I'll have a look into the authors you suggest.
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Shows: 32 in five countries and on the ocean.

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